thoughts of clear tubing ...

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Re: thoughts of clear tubing ...

tom hardiment
we planning on a sensor to trigger a ball to be picked up?
i've been given a little metal detector, which could work nicely



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Re: thoughts of clear tubing ...

Martin Ling
In reply to this post by Anne Suess
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 04:55:27PM +0100, Anne Suess wrote:
>
>    Ruan's link:
>    http://docs.google.com/View?id=df9td5n3_47dhr7pmd3

This is a really good idea. I was concerned about accurately
synchronising the ball feed mechanism to the lift, but of course
triggering on a reed switch solves the problem perfectly.


Martin
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Re: thoughts of clear tubing ...

Martin Ling
In reply to this post by Anne Suess
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 05:52:45PM +0100, Anne Suess wrote:
>
>    It is good to have some budget idea, but it is doubtful it can be
>    done with only -L-50 from forest!  Perhaps this needs to be
>    addressed, before a realistic plan can be made.  We could also
>    perhaps start making a list of prices we already know.

The figure of £50 was based on buying balls (£18), magnets (£8), webbing
(£12) plus some tubing, to get the lift up and running. I suggested it
as a "if we could get this, we can get off the ground" figure that
wouldn't need too much discussion to approve. Doesn't mean we can't ask
for more, but we can spend £50 right now.


Martin
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Re: thoughts of clear tubing ...

Anne Suess
Thanks Martin, sorry I misunderstood.  As you say it is a realistic start.  Depending on the price of some tubing, a bit of plastic pipe and/or perhaps some acetate, it may not cost too much more, hopefully. Ruan is happy to donate the drill bits he has if they are wanted.

Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:53 AM
Ruan Suess wrote:
>For driving the system I have some 18v drill motors and gearboxes lying around that have huge amounts of torque. All we would >need is a power supply for it.

And from the discussions already it seems possible most of what's needed otherwise will be available among other dorkbots ie. power supply, switches/electronics, wire, wood, axle pole etc.  I'm sure we probably have other useful bits and pieces ourselves :-)

Thought I should say Ruan mentioned to me that he still thinks the doughnut magnets might be best as you first suggested as they would be easy to sew securely onto the webbing.  He's been really busy or he would have posted.

Anne

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Martin Ling <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 05:52:45PM +0100, Anne Suess wrote:
>
>    It is good to have some budget idea, but it is doubtful it can be
>    done with only -L-50 from forest!  Perhaps this needs to be
>    addressed, before a realistic plan can be made.  We could also
>    perhaps start making a list of prices we already know.

The figure of £50 was based on buying balls (£18), magnets (£8), webbing
(£12) plus some tubing, to get the lift up and running. I suggested it
as a "if we could get this, we can get off the ground" figure that
wouldn't need too much discussion to approve. Doesn't mean we can't ask
for more, but we can spend £50 right now.


Martin
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ball bearing lift: glue instead of sew

Nick
Anne Suess wrote:
> Thought I should say Ruan mentioned to me that he still thinks the
> doughnut magnets might be best as you first suggested as they would be
> easy to sew securely onto the webbing.

Just a thought.

As an alternative to sewing, perhaps we could staple cardboard or plastic disks
to the webbing, with the staple pointing width-wise along the webbing (to allow
the webbing to flex lengthwise), and the flat side of the staple on the "inside"
of the webbing, to keep it smooth.  Then hot-glue the magnets to the disks.

Something like this:

 -----------------------
   (:) (:) (:) (:) (:)    Outside
 -----------------------

 -----------------------
    |   |   |   |   |     Inside
 -----------------------


N
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Re: ball bearing lift: glue instead of sew

tom hardiment



As an alternative to sewing, perhaps we could staple cardboard or plastic disks
to the webbing, with the staple pointing width-wise along the webbing (to allow
the webbing to flex lengthwise), and the flat side of the staple on the "inside"
of the webbing, to keep it smooth.  Then hot-glue the magnets to the disks.

Something like this:

 -----------------------
  (:) (:) (:) (:) (:)    Outside
 -----------------------

 -----------------------
   |   |   |   |   |     Inside
 -----------------------


nice pic!

sounds like a good plan to me, balls will sit better in magnets if theres no thread in the way, and removes potential for said thread to fray.. as long as it ends up strong enough.



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Re: ball bearing lift: glue instead of sew

Anne Suess
Agreed we can't be sure that the thread won't interfere with the pick up of the balls or how they sit without experimenting, it had crossed our minds, but worth noting that you can get extra strong thread which would mean perhaps only catching the magnet in 3 or 4 places around the magnet, which probably wont interfere with the flexing of the webbing, would hopefully last well and hopefully not stop the balls adhering to the magnet!  However it would need to be tried to be certain!!!  It would be a bit of work which is a good reason for not using it, unless it is the best solution.

We did think of using staples or studs as an easier fast alternative, but worried they might interfere more with the smooth running of the belt or be more likely to come adrift with the moving and flexing of the belt, but mainly that they caused more problems in exactly how to attach the magnets.  We didn't think of this particular solution because for this type of moving design we had our doubts that hot glue would be strong enough.  Ruan has quite a bit of experience with it on a 4 month animation shoot which is why he didn't feel it the right product for this job!  Sorry, unfortunately he is working in Glasgow until Sunday evening, so possibly not able to respond himself with his experience till then.  He did say previously that if it is used, only the good quality stuff stands any chance of working.  They tried to reduce expenses on the shoot when they ran out during the project because it didn't last well and bought a cheaper brand only to have to go out and buy the more expensive brand again! 

Just a thought.  Are you keen on the hot glue because of experience of a brand working well in a similar situation?  We have done a great deal of art and crafts with all sorts of materials in our collective experience, so sorry I keep saying 'in our experience'!!!!

If our worries of smooth running and coming adrift are unfounded it occurs to me that staples might be an easier and quicker way to attach other things like wire and LED's :-)

Are there other designs of magnet which would be easier to attach to the webbing?

Anne

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:02 PM, tom hardiment <[hidden email]> wrote:



As an alternative to sewing, perhaps we could staple cardboard or plastic disks
to the webbing, with the staple pointing width-wise along the webbing (to allow
the webbing to flex lengthwise), and the flat side of the staple on the "inside"
of the webbing, to keep it smooth.  Then hot-glue the magnets to the disks.

Something like this:

 -----------------------
  (:) (:) (:) (:) (:)    Outside
 -----------------------

 -----------------------
   |   |   |   |   |     Inside
 -----------------------


nice pic!

sounds like a good plan to me, balls will sit better in magnets if theres no thread in the way, and removes potential for said thread to fray.. as long as it ends up strong enough.



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Re: ball bearing lift: glue instead of sew

Anne Suess
Check out this site.  

http://www.first4magnets.com/

Not only does it have a range of different magnets it also has glue which claims to be ideal for gluing magnets to almost anything including fabric, is solvent free, sets clear in 90 seconds, waterproof, long lasting and withstands rough handling.  (Araldite Extra Strength Super Glue.  If it can be believed it would be fantastic.  No stapling required :-) 

http://www.first4magnets.com/a0001---araldite-extra-strength-super-glue--14g-90-seconds-pack-of-1-c32-307-p.asp

There are a couple of other glues, but longer setting times.

Really don't know enough about magnets myself to know what we need, but I now gather neodymium magnets are not the one's to choose.  I take it the plan was to use ordinary magnets? It seems to me now that if we are using magnets the weakest ones we can get away with the better. Worth reading the health and safety information - here's 3 examples.

http://www.first4magnets.com/health-and-safety-information-3-w.asp

http://e-magnetsuk.com/health-and-safety.aspx

http://www.powermagnetstore.com/acatalog/Safety_Info.html

Anne









On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Anne Suess <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agreed we can't be sure that the thread won't interfere with the pick up of the balls or how they sit without experimenting, it had crossed our minds, but worth noting that you can get extra strong thread which would mean perhaps only catching the magnet in 3 or 4 places around the magnet, which probably wont interfere with the flexing of the webbing, would hopefully last well and hopefully not stop the balls adhering to the magnet!  However it would need to be tried to be certain!!!  It would be a bit of work which is a good reason for not using it, unless it is the best solution.

We did think of using staples or studs as an easier fast alternative, but worried they might interfere more with the smooth running of the belt or be more likely to come adrift with the moving and flexing of the belt, but mainly that they caused more problems in exactly how to attach the magnets.  We didn't think of this particular solution because for this type of moving design we had our doubts that hot glue would be strong enough.  Ruan has quite a bit of experience with it on a 4 month animation shoot which is why he didn't feel it the right product for this job!  Sorry, unfortunately he is working in Glasgow until Sunday evening, so possibly not able to respond himself with his experience till then.  He did say previously that if it is used, only the good quality stuff stands any chance of working.  They tried to reduce expenses on the shoot when they ran out during the project because it didn't last well and bought a cheaper brand only to have to go out and buy the more expensive brand again! 

Just a thought.  Are you keen on the hot glue because of experience of a brand working well in a similar situation?  We have done a great deal of art and crafts with all sorts of materials in our collective experience, so sorry I keep saying 'in our experience'!!!!

If our worries of smooth running and coming adrift are unfounded it occurs to me that staples might be an easier and quicker way to attach other things like wire and LED's :-)

Are there other designs of magnet which would be easier to attach to the webbing?

Anne

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:02 PM, tom hardiment <[hidden email]> wrote:



As an alternative to sewing, perhaps we could staple cardboard or plastic disks
to the webbing, with the staple pointing width-wise along the webbing (to allow
the webbing to flex lengthwise), and the flat side of the staple on the "inside"
of the webbing, to keep it smooth.  Then hot-glue the magnets to the disks.

Something like this:

 -----------------------
  (:) (:) (:) (:) (:)    Outside
 -----------------------

 -----------------------
   |   |   |   |   |     Inside
 -----------------------


nice pic!

sounds like a good plan to me, balls will sit better in magnets if theres no thread in the way, and removes potential for said thread to fray.. as long as it ends up strong enough.



........................................................................
.........dorkbot: people doing strange things with electricity..........
..........................http://dorkbot.org............................
........................................................................




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ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

Martin Ling
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 05:21:02AM +0100, Anne Suess wrote:
>
>    Really don't know enough about magnets myself to know what we need, but I
>    now gather neodymium magnets are not the one's to choose.  I take it the
>    plan was to use ordinary magnets? It seems to me now that if we are using
>    magnets the weakest ones we can get away with the better.

Well, it seems the weakest option is that flexible magnetic tape stuff.
But I don't see that being strong enough to support a steel ball.

Moving up from there you get to ferrite/ceramic magnets, which sit
between the crappy flexible stuff and the rare earth types like
neodymium.

I propose to order some of these 12mm ferrite ring magnets:

http://www.rapidonline.com/Educational-Products/Science/Magnets/Ferrite-ring-magnets/78888/kw/06-5972?source=googleps&utm_source=googleps

Delivery is a fiver though, so anyone else want anything else from
Rapid? Or should we chance it and buy enough to do the job? Only 12.5p
each.

I'm conscious of time ticking by - if we want to prototype anything next
Tuesday, we need to be ordering it now.

For £49.64 total, I can buy:

- the 50m reel of 1" webbing Ruan suggested
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50m-strong-webbing-upholstery-horsebox-trailor-tow-rope-/330399474801?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Crafts_Fabric_Textiles_SM&hash=item4ced57e471

- 50 of those 1/2" ferrite ring magnets

- 50 1/2" steel bearings

We'd then be in a position to actually start putting something together
at the next meeting.

One can argue that we should test out small numbers before ordering a
full set of anything, but that introduces a lot of extra shipping costs
and delays. It's pretty much just as cheap to do this, and then order
different magnets if these ones don't turn out right, as it is to order
small quantities now and then more stuff later.


Martin
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Re: ball bearing lift: glue instead of sew

Nick
In reply to this post by Anne Suess
Hot glue is just the first thing which came to mind.  The main point of the idea
is just to avoid threading and be quick, at least in the first iteration.

It boils down to trial and error, really, there are all sorts of things you
can't anticipate.

N
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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

tom hardiment
In reply to this post by Martin Ling
if you're clear in your mind how its all going to work, go for it!

at the minute i'm still a bit fuzzy



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Re: ball bearing lift: glue instead of sew

Nick
In reply to this post by Anne Suess
Anne Suess wrote:
> Worth reading the health and safety information - here's 3 examples.

This is a particularly graphic cautionary tale I came across.

 http://www.geekologie.com/2009/02/guy_loses_finger_to_neodymium.php


N
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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

Anne Suess
In reply to this post by tom hardiment
Hi Martin,

I think you're right on all counts.  If you are interested in trying the Araldite Extra Strength Superglue plus it is also available from Rapid £1cheaper than the other place and makes the postage more worthwhile:

http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Service-Aids/Adhesives/Superglue-plus/77503/kw/

I notice they have a contact an expert chat facility and wondered if it would be worth while asking them if they know if the 1/2" ferrite ring magnets are capable of picking up and holding the 1/2" steel bearings? It would be perfect if they are. But I agree it is worth going for the full set. Would be great to have the stuff for Tuesday :-)

Anne 

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:53 AM, tom hardiment <[hidden email]> wrote:
if you're clear in your mind how its all going to work, go for it!

at the minute i'm still a bit fuzzy



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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

Martin Ling
OK - I've placed the orders, including the superglue. Hopefully we'll
have it all by Tuesday!


Martin

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 02:54:47PM +0100, Anne Suess wrote:

>
>    Hi Martin,
>
>    I think you're right on all counts.  If you are interested in trying the
>    Araldite Extra Strength Superglue plus it is also available from Rapid
>    -L-1cheaper than the other place and makes the postage more worthwhile:
>
>    http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Service-Aids/Adhesives/Superglue-plus/77503/kw/
>
>    I notice they have a contact an expert chat facility and wondered if it
>    would be worth while asking them if they know if the 1/2" ferrite ring
>    magnets are capable of picking up and holding the 1/2" steel bearings? It
>    would be perfect if they are. But I agree it is worth going for the full
>    set. Would be great to have the stuff for Tuesday :-)
>
>    Anne
>
>    On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:53 AM, tom hardiment <[hidden email]>
>    wrote:
>
>      if you're clear in your mind how its all going to work, go for it!
>
>      at the minute i'm still a bit fuzzy
>
>      ........................................................................
>      .........dorkbot: people doing strange things with electricity..........
>      ..........................http://dorkbot.org............................
>      ........................................................................

> ........................................................................
> .........dorkbot: people doing strange things with electricity..........
> ..........................http://dorkbot.org............................
> ........................................................................



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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

Colin O'Flynn
Cool!

What's the plan for the rest of the stuff (ie: motors, pullys)?

  -Colin

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Ling
Sent: May 20, 2010 4:54 PM
To: A discussion list for dorkbot-alba
Subject: Re: [dorkbotalba-blabber] ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

OK - I've placed the orders, including the superglue. Hopefully we'll
have it all by Tuesday!


Martin

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 02:54:47PM +0100, Anne Suess wrote:
>
>    Hi Martin,
>
>    I think you're right on all counts.  If you are interested in trying
the
>    Araldite Extra Strength Superglue plus it is also available from Rapid
>    -L-1cheaper than the other place and makes the postage more worthwhile:
>
>
http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Service-Aids
/Adhesives/Superglue-plus/77503/kw/
>
>    I notice they have a contact an expert chat facility and wondered if it
>    would be worth while asking them if they know if the 1/2" ferrite ring
>    magnets are capable of picking up and holding the 1/2" steel bearings?
It
>    would be perfect if they are. But I agree it is worth going for the
full
>    set. Would be great to have the stuff for Tuesday :-)
>
>    Anne
>
>    On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:53 AM, tom hardiment
<[hidden email]>
>    wrote:
>
>      if you're clear in your mind how its all going to work, go for it!
>
>      at the minute i'm still a bit fuzzy
>
>
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>      .........dorkbot: people doing strange things with
electricity..........
>
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>
........................................................................

> ........................................................................
> .........dorkbot: people doing strange things with electricity..........
> ..........................http://dorkbot.org............................
> ........................................................................



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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

Martin Ling
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 06:29:09PM +0100, Colin O'Flynn wrote:
>
> What's the plan for the rest of the stuff (ie: motors, pullys)?

Salvage it from whatever we can find.

Tom and Ruan both suggested they might have things we could use
(microwave rotation motor, 18V drill). Anyone else?

Anyone got any reed switches?


Martin
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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

tom hardiment
microwave motor no good, but have wiper motor which would be- its 12v so i'll bring it along and hopefully there'll be a power supply for either that or ruan's drill

don't really know much about reed switches but i have this toy metal detector, which perhaps contains one? as far as i can see it should work regardless to give a signal- not got a battery for it at the minute though, so untested. i'll bring that too.

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Martin Ling <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 06:29:09PM +0100, Colin O'Flynn wrote:
>
> What's the plan for the rest of the stuff (ie: motors, pullys)?

Salvage it from whatever we can find.

Tom and Ruan both suggested they might have things we could use
(microwave rotation motor, 18V drill). Anyone else?

Anyone got any reed switches?


Martin
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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

Anne Suess
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Martin Ling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Tom and Ruan both suggested they might have things we could use
>(microwave rotation motor, 18V drill)

Yes Ruan has 2 drills he is happy to bring along. 

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 8:32 PM, tom hardiment <[hidden email]> wrote
>hopefully there'll be a power supply for either that or ruan's drill

Sorry power supplies we're short of!  Sorry don't know about other stuff until Ruan comes back Sunday or Monday. 

Anne





On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 8:32 PM, tom hardiment <[hidden email]> wrote:
microwave motor no good, but have wiper motor which would be- its 12v so i'll bring it along and hopefully there'll be a power supply for either that or ruan's drill

don't really know much about reed switches but i have this toy metal detector, which perhaps contains one? as far as i can see it should work regardless to give a signal- not got a battery for it at the minute though, so untested. i'll bring that too.


On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Martin Ling <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 06:29:09PM +0100, Colin O'Flynn wrote:
>
> What's the plan for the rest of the stuff (ie: motors, pullys)?

Salvage it from whatever we can find.

Tom and Ruan both suggested they might have things we could use
(microwave rotation motor, 18V drill). Anyone else?

Anyone got any reed switches?


Martin
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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

Colin O'Flynn
In reply to this post by tom hardiment

Metal detector probably uses a loop of wire…

 

If we just need to detect balls though could hopefully just wire up some leads to use the conductivity aspect of them.

 

  -Colin

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of tom hardiment
Sent: May 20, 2010 8:32 PM
To: A discussion list for dorkbot-alba
Subject: Re: [dorkbotalba-blabber] ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

 

microwave motor no good, but have wiper motor which would be- its 12v so i'll bring it along and hopefully there'll be a power supply for either that or ruan's drill

don't really know much about reed switches but i have this toy metal detector, which perhaps contains one? as far as i can see it should work regardless to give a signal- not got a battery for it at the minute though, so untested. i'll bring that too.

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Martin Ling <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 06:29:09PM +0100, Colin O'Flynn wrote:
>
> What's the plan for the rest of the stuff (ie: motors, pullys)?

Salvage it from whatever we can find.

Tom and Ruan both suggested they might have things we could use
(microwave rotation motor, 18V drill). Anyone else?

Anyone got any reed switches?


Martin

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Re: ball bearing lift - PROPOSED PURCHASING

Nick
In reply to this post by Martin Ling
Martin Ling wrote:
> Anyone got any reed switches?

I happen to have a few. I'll try and remember to bring them.

I'll keep an eye out in local skips for tubes.

Not sure what to suggest for pulleys.  Nor what to fix it all to, we'll need
some sort of a frame won't we?  Or at least a stick.

Martin's the tallest, perhaps we can staple it onto him. That way we won't lose
anything.


N
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